Introducing Discovery Dialogues, a new podcast from Vanderbilt Graduate School that takes you inside the dynamic world of graduate research and scholarship. From academic discoveries to personal journeys, Discovery Dialogues shines a spotlight on the remarkable contributions of Vanderbilt’s graduate community.
Hello and welcome to Discovery Dialogues. I’m your host, Nick Hyer, Program Manager for Graduate and Postdoc Academic Success. And today I’m here with Dr. Heather Hartmann, Postdoctoral Scholar in Biochemistry. Thanks for joining me today, Heather.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, so in addition to being a postdoc at Vanderbilt, you also did your graduate work here. What initially drew you to Vanderbilt University?
I was looking at graduate schools during 2020. So, I didn’t really have the chance to see any places in person. But Vanderbilt and especially the BRET office did a really good job of making sure that I felt like Vanderbilt had enough resources. Beth Bowman did so many things- like she did a drive around Nashville being like, here’s this, here’s that. She also did a bunch of different each week Zoom meetings with different students to make sure that we knew all the resources that Vanderbilt had. That’s one of the reasons I definitely came to Vanderbilt.
You mentioned BRET Office. You were part of the QCB program?
Yes, I entered through the Quantitative and Chemical Biology program.
Awesome. And tell us a little bit about that program and what drew you to the opportunity to do rotations instead of diving straight into a specific lab.
Yeah, the one nice thing about QCB and IGP is that you get to choose your department, which is not stereotypical for a lot of PhDs. As someone who did chemistry in undergrad, I thought about doing chemistry PhDs. But QCB really gave me the opportunity to go ahead and explore different departments. I got to do four different rotations that were eight weeks long, and I got to do them in practically 16 different departments. So, I did two in pathology, one in biochem, one in CDB.
Gotcha. What do you think you took away from those other labs, even though you maybe didn’t join them in the end?
I learned a lot of skills. I came into Vanderbilt knowing practically nothing about biology, being a chemistry major. And my first rotation was just eight weeks of doing Western blots. I had no idea what a Western blot was prior to this. And so it was definitely just a lot of skills that it was like, this is how I can be a biologist- gaining some of those basic skills.
Great. Talk to me a little bit about your research as a graduate student. What questions were you trying to answer, and what did you discover along the way?
Yes. So, I was a graduate student in the lab of Dr. Vivian Weiss in pathology and microbiology and immunology department. And my research questions were looking at environmental and intrinsic drivers of thyroid cancer. We were really interested in different biomarkers for thyroid cancer and specifically aggressive and metastatic disease. And also something that was really unique from my undergrad is I studied pear and polyfloral alkyl substances. And I was able to actually study those in the thyroid as well, which was really interesting.
Gotcha. And then once you kind of finished that, what did you discover about all of those things?
We discovered specifically for PFAS, that’s your Teflon, your basically indestructible chemicals- they’re forever chemicals. And we found that they actually alter thyroid histology and thyroid cellular behavior. And so that was really something interesting that we’re hoping others and even possibly the lab will continue doing in the future- looking at that. But in the other project, we also found that the Tenascin C protein basically could act as a biomarker for metastatic thyroid cancer. So that would be really something that we could actually take to the clinical lab and start staining for.
Nice. Yeah, I think lots of us are familiar with PFAS. And it just seems like the more research being done on them, the more we realize how harmful they are. Any suggestions on what we can do to avoid those chemicals?
They’re just everywhere. It’s one of those things that like even my Apple Watch that I’m wearing, like the wristbands and all of that have PFAS on them. It’s just all about knowing about your exposure and minimizing your exposure. Almost everything has it in it, but just being aware of it.
Yeah. So talk a little bit about your decision of becoming a postdoc and why you decided to stay here at Vanderbilt.
I was defending right around this time last year actually, and it was hard to find a job just because there were changes within the NIH and a lot of funding cutbacks. And so, I knew I wanted additional skills to make myself marketable if I did decide I wanted to go to industry or academia. And so, I just decided to reach out and look for postdocs here. And I managed to get a postdoc in the lab of Dr. Guengerich in biochem.
Nice. And what are you doing there?
So in the Guengerich lab, I’m studying Cytochrome P450s. I’m studying how they interact with fatty acid binding proteins.
Okay. And talk a little bit about the transition from graduate student to postdoc.
It’s different and I feel like there’s less… not stress, but less pressure. As a grad student, I always felt a little bit of this pressure to graduate. You get it from obviously your peers, maybe sometimes your mentor and obviously your family. Anytime you go home for Christmas, they’re like, and when are you going to graduate and get a real job? So as a postdoc, it’s… different. I feel like I can finally do things and not have this external pressure to graduate.
Gotcha. There’s certainly pressure, but it’s a different kind of pressure, right?
Yes, there’s still that pressure to publish. There’s still that pressure to discover things, but it’s different. And it doesn’t feel quite as like: I need to do this to graduate. It’s like: I need to do this because: oh it’s interesting, oh it’s something that we’re studying, oh this will help like later on.
Move the research down? Yeah. So, you mentioned one of the reasons that you wanted to continue as a postdoc was skill building. Can you talk about some of the skills you’re working on now?
Yes. In my graduate studies, I focused heavily on becoming a better biologist. I’ve never done any biology stuff before: cell culture, mouse models, organoid models. And so the skills that I’m using right now are drug metabolism and as well getting back into some of my analytical chemistry knowledge that I had from undergrad and just kind of hoping to bolster that to make myself marketable.
Nice. And what discoveries are you trying to learn about in your new lab?
We’re really interested in, as I mentioned, these fatty acid binding proteins and how they interact specifically with P450s and whether or not they’re transferring drugs, sequestering drugs, and whether or not we can build that into some of our current drug metabolism models.
P450, break that down for me.
It’s an enzyme. Most of them metabolize xenobiotics. The one that we really study in the lab is 3A4. It’s the main drug-metabolizing enzyme. That one in particular is really cool because it does a bunch of different things. It can do steroids, it can do drugs. I mean, it mostly does drugs, but it’s like the main one when you think of drug-metabolizing enzymes.
And it probably metabolizes all kinds of drugs. So there’s all kinds of opportunity in studying this of what it could be used for down the road.
Yes, exactly. Like right now, we’re looking at them in terms of inhibitors. So certain drugs- like for Paxlovid, they give ritonavir with it. And it’s supposed to kind of taper 3A4’s effectiveness and make it inhibit a little bit of that enzyme activity to help with COVID. And we’re kind of interested in that- to see if we can then, with some of these inhibitors, better look at putting those into our drug metabolism models and seeing if we can predict how much is going to be inhibited with some of these other binding proteins.
Well, in addition to the research and your skills, what have you enjoyed most about being a postdoc?
I think the freedom. There’s a lot more freedom in what projects I get to do and how I use my time. I really have enjoyed, I wrote several grants this past year. I got to design some of my own projects and thinking about where I want to take the research. I got one (but with the help of my mentor, Dr. Guengerich) for the American Heart Association Fellowship. And so that was something that we hadn’t touched before looking at Cytochrome P450s and heart. And so that’s really cool.
Yeah. Congratulations.
Thank you. Also, my time management is different. I get to set my own schedule in grad school, but there’s not all these seminars, all of these different classes or anything like that that I have to go to. I get to choose what I get to go to and how I spend my time.
Yeah, I think we all enjoy having a little bit more freedom, so that must be nice. Tell me on the flip side, what’s been the greatest challenge as a postdoc?
I would like to say that there haven’t been any challenges, but that’s not true. Anytime you start a new job, there’s always this barrier to knowledge. I started in a different field in cancer biology, and now I’m doing something completely different. And it’s even also different from my undergrad. So for me, the hardest part has been what don’t I know. And, what can I pinpoint as areas that I need to brush up on and actually focus on to make it easier for me to do the research?
Yeah, I think a lot of graduate students, postdocs, scientific researchers in general can relate to that. There’s a gap in knowledge and I need to fill it. Can you talk a little bit about your process towards bridging that gap?
Yes. I think honestly the main start of how you bridge that gap is figuring out where the gap is. And that might be a little hard to do. I had taken enzyme kinetics here with my current PI. And now that I’m doing it, I’m like, I actually don’t remember anything from this class I took four years ago. So, I sat in on a few of his classes because he teaches the class every year. And then it’s also talking to people, reading papers, and actually just doing the experiments really does help bridge that gap. But you need to be wanting to be like, all right, there’s this gap, and this is what I need to do to take care of that.
Nice. Talk a little bit about the Vanderbilt resources that you’ve discovered and ones that have been particularly helpful, both as a graduate student and now as a postdoc.
There are honestly so many resources. Thinking about scientific resources like TPSR, I love the shared pathology resource.
TPSR, Translational Pathology Shared Resource.
I also love Vantage as well. They do a lot of RNA sequencing. The MassSpec Research Center obviously does mass spec stuff. Even the High Throughput Core as well, we use them pretty frequently. So those are some of the scientific resources we use.
And in terms of other resources as well, the BRET office has some amazing resources. They have ones that can help you with writing your CV or resume. They also have a great career symposium every year so you can get to discover different careers. I’ve gone to that pretty frequently. They also have seminars from different people in industry or academia. They’ve got failure talks as well. So there’s just so many of those resources. And then, obviously your office has so many as well if you need more of those professional: How do you handle difficult conversations with your PI or mentor or something?
Yeah. You said failure talk. Tell me more about what that looks like.
Yeah. The BRET office does a few of these “failure talks” where they get different people to come and talk about their career paths. Some of them are like, well, I didn’t get this grant and for most people that would be considered a failure. Or, I had to take this detour in my career path and most people would consider that a failure. Or, I have a non-traditional career path and if you look at that, some people might consider that a failure. So, it’s kind of getting you to think more about there might be setbacks in your career or you might have a different career than you thought you would, but it doesn’t mean that that’s necessarily a failure. And here’s some of the lessons that they took from it.
Yeah, I love that they normalized that. And then full disclosure, my wife works in TPSR, but could you talk a little bit about what they provide and why you found it so valuable?
Yes. So, obviously being a grad student in the pathology department, we loved our pathology resources. And what was really cool about TPSR is not only could you submit samples to them- so we had a lot of mouse samples and we would submit them to them. They would embed them and then section them and even do H&E staining or other types of staining for you. But you can also, they have a bunch of different specimens from the actual surgeries and stuff that go on here at Vanderbilt. And you can actually, if you have an IRB, pull cases and they can get you some of those slides so that you’ll have some human tissue to work with.
As we talk about Vanderbilt resources, you are part of the VPA, which is the Vanderbilt Postdoc Association. Can you talk a little bit about what that is?
Yes. The Vanderbilt Postdoc Association is basically just there as a resource for postdocs. We have different events each month. We hold generally a happy hour every other month, and then we’ll have a speakeasy, where people get the opportunity to just give like a five-minute presentation on their research to a bunch of different people in different fields. So, it’s really getting to that science communication if you’re in science or just communicating your research in general.
That’s great. And then what other types of activities does the VPA hold?
We’re right now putting together the VPA annual postdoc symposium that we do. It’ll be in November this year. If people are wanting to be a part of that, feel free to reach out to our symposium chairs. We do different talks and posters. We bring in a keynote speaker. And then we’ll also have different workshops. Right now we’re thinking of different workshops in terms of maybe grant writing, communicating your research to others, because that’s always something that’s incredibly difficult.
Yeah. And then, you know, we’re so focused on the academic side of things. How does VPA lighten the mood a little?
Yes. Actually our current president joked once, he was like, speak easy– more like speak hard, because he got quizzed on it. But honestly he was just making a joke about it because everyone was so interested in his research that he got SO many questions. He was like: I was not expecting this. In that case, speakeasy is a great way for us to meet other people and get to know the research that is going on around Vanderbilt. Most of the time, you’re just in your little department bubbles. As postdocs, people have families and are in different career points in their life and it’s really nice to come, have like an hour to relax and just think about, oh, look, there’s these other people, doing, doing also really cool, really amazing research and figure out what’s going on around campus.
Yeah, and I think a lot of times we kind of get into our bubbles, not purposefully- it’s just what happens, right? The people that we’re surrounded around. And so, you’re talking about your research and most folks are familiar with it. You know, he mentioned the questions that he was receiving. I think when you are able to communicate the research to other folks, different ideas and perspectives come up. And I think that’s such a valuable aspect of Vanderbilt- the opportunity to collaborate interdisciplinary.
Exactly. Like someone gave a postdoc talk on: why do you snore? And I was like, this is perfect for me. I have sleep apnea. So it was really nice to hear the science behind obstructive sleep apnea, which is exactly what I have and kind of what Vanderbilt is doing in research that’s going on that I had no idea about.
Any helpful hints that you can give us?
Well, what was really interesting about that talk was not only did I figure out I had probably like a mild to more like moderate, severe sleep apnea because I do snore a frequent amount, but that they’re doing some different things with surgeries in order to help correct some of the obstructive sleep apnea that people have. And so it was really cool to just hear about that research and be like, huh, this is really cool and actually something that I know and I have.
Nice. And if folks are interested in getting more involved in the VPA, how would they do that?
Yes. Please feel free to reach out to myself or Ron. Our emails should be on the VPA site as well as reaching out to anyone else on the VPA board. You can also reach out to Faith Bishop and Annie Evans, who also would be able to put you in touch with any of us. And if you have any great ideas for the upcoming symposium, we would love to hear them. We had one meeting so far about the symposium, but we would love to get more people out there on committees and just getting involved and hearing more about what people are doing around campus.
Yeah. And then lastly, the VPA loves to celebrate folks as well. We were recently at an award ceremony. If folks are interested in nominating their mentor or a peer, how would they go about that?
Yes. Every year, Faith and Annie send out- around, I think, December and January- they’ll send follow-ups to get you to nominate your fellow peers as well as your mentors. It’s really great to nominate people, really give people recognition for the work that they’ve been doing, not only for postdocs, but also for graduate students as well. That graduate and postdoc banquet last Thursday was really great to see all the amazing work that’s happening here at Vanderbilt.
Nice. What’s something that you’ve discovered about yourself since coming to Vanderbilt?
I don’t know. I feel like I had this certain career path that I thought about. Maybe this can go towards the little bit of the failure talk. I never thought about being a scientist. And now that I’m in it, I kind of don’t imagine doing anything else. So, for me, I’ve really discovered more that I like science. I didn’t grow up around science. I was a history/ social studies type of nerd. Going to college, I was just like, I guess I could do it. Like, I don’t really want to. I wanted to be an econ major. But I was like, oh, I’m good at math. I’ll just take some chemistry classes. And now here, I can’t imagine doing anything else.
Yeah. So, what would you say to folks in terms of leaving your options open?
I am a big fan of leaving your options open. I don’t like to close any door. And I would say if you’re unsure, I love leaving all the doors open. I still have the opportunity to go back and maybe do some more history, social studies type things, but I just like to keep those doors open in case it’s something I want to revisit.
Yeah. Tell us, what was something that you wish you had known that would be helpful to others?
In terms of Vanderbilt, and this is something that I hope everyone takes, especially if you’re starting in QCB or IGP: do a rotation that you’re like, eh, this doesn’t sound interesting at all, but I’m going to go and maybe have some fun, learn a new technique. And for someone who didn’t know anything about biology, that was all my rotations- were me being like oh I don’t know what this is but I’m gonna go and I’m gonna try it. But if you kind of already know what you want to do that’s great and my gosh, you are like leaps and bounds ahead of where I was! But I do recommend having that one rotation where you’re like, I’m just going to go in and have fun. And maybe you’ll surprise yourself and be like, actually, this is really interesting and something that I could actually see myself doing. Don’t limit yourself too much in terms of rotations or anything.
Nice. And then could you talk a little bit about the trifecta, the PI, the lab environment, and the research?
Yes. This is my favorite thing to talk about because everyone always thinks you have to have all three. And that’s not true. It’s very rarely you’ll like your PI, you’ll like your lab, you’ll like your research. Things are always going to change. That’s one constant. And so you need to like two out of the three. And this was advice I was given when I was coming to grad school- as long as you like two out of the three, whether it be the PI and the people, cool, great. I mean, most people choose research and PI or research and lab, but you need to like two out of the three. And things change. And so as long as you have two out of three, that should make for a successful grad school.
And do you think that out of the three, there are one or two that are more important than the others?
Yes, I definitely think your PI is arguably the most important out of all of those. And yeah, that’s actually a debate my boyfriend and I have been having about which is the most important. I do admit the PI is the most important part, especially in grad school, because they’re there to help you when things go wrong, when things go right, to help guide not only your career, but to also guide your research project along. And things might change in terms of grants and you might be on a project that ends up not getting funded and then that has to change, but your PI will always be there. So that’s just kind of the main one.
Yeah, and I think it’s important to realize there aren’t good PIs and bad PIs, there are PIs that have different styles.
Yes.
And it’s important for you to know what is the style of the PI and how would you fit with that? Can you adapt? Can you compromise? Or do you need somebody that is going to be more tailored to what you need? So as you think about all of those dynamics, can you talk a little bit about the mentorship that you’ve gained along the way?
Yes. So as you just said, that’s exactly important. Kind of like with any career you have, you’re always going to have basically a boss. It’s kind of what works for you and what can you put up with. Can you put up with your PI being in the lab and literally looking over your shoulder all the time? Is that something that you’re like I really need my PI to be hands-on because I have no idea what I’m doing? But that’s not for everyone. Some people are like, I actually would prefer a PI who’s hands-off. But then how much hands-off do you want to be? Do you want your PI- you only see them maybe once a month? Or do you want them to just be like I’m not going to be in the lab watching you, but I will still be here if you need me? And so, for me, obviously starting out in undergrad, I loved my PI being there, being hands-on, being like, let me show you how to configure and set up this mass spec. Let me show you how to do some of this stuff. And so, I needed that in undergrad. And then moving towards grad school, I did want a PI who was a little bit more hands-off, but hands-on enough that if there were things I didn’t know how to do… like my PI and I did mouse thyroid dissections together because I had no idea how to do them. And so, it was still like someone that I could go to when I needed those skills, but wasn’t someone who necessarily was like, oh, I need to be there all the time. But like she was always available. So that’s something I wanted as well.
Yeah, that’s such a great additional point that what you need, depending on the stage that you’re in, is probably going to look different. So what would you say that you’ve learned about how you want to mentor others from your mentors?
Honestly, it’s always going to be hard to mentor because you need to figure out what does your mentee need? I started mentoring when I was an undergrad. I had a student and I was just like, I’m going to show you how to do this once. You’re going to go do it. If you mess up, it’s totally fine. She did not like that. She was like, I actually needed you to be more there and showing me how to do things. And I was like, I didn’t even think about asking you and how you wanted to be mentored. So, it’s kind of something I’ve taken. I’ve mentored a few undergrads in grad school, and now I’ve got a few undergrads in my postdoc as well.
Yeah. I think setting expectations is so important. And one of the ways that we do that here at Vanderbilt with our postdocs is through an IDP. Can you talk a little bit about your IDP process and what you’ve gained from that?
Yes. We also have to do one in grad school as well.
Not every student is required to do it in grad school, but you are required to do it as a postdoc.
Yeah. And I think the BRET office makes everyone do an IDP. So at least the biomedical sciences, we do have to do an IDP and sit down with our PIs every year.
Okay.
So for me, it wasn’t something new because I had already been doing it. But when I first started my postdoc, I sat down with my advisor and we were talking about kind of like… When should I be publishing? When and what conferences should I go to? And so it was really important to kind of set up some expectations that he had and that I had as well for like, hey, I do want to go to this conference. And it’s like, cool, you want to go to that conference, great, but you need to have X amount of data in order to go to that conference. So it was nice to set up those expectations and make sure we’re on the same page.
Yeah, such a great point. So you did your graduate school work here, you’re doing a postdoc here. What do you think is next for you after this?
I have been debating this for so long. I have no idea, honestly. I’ve thought about doing academia. I don’t think that’s necessarily something I want to do. Thought about doing industry, but I don’t know if that’s what I want to do either. I’ve thought about doing clinical chemistry just because I have a strong background in chemistry. Honestly, having some of that experience in grad school with some of the clinical rounds, and I even got to see the clinical labs here at Vanderbilt. And so that was really cool. But I, again, am someone who likes to keep all my doors open. I’m going to give myself a little bit more time to get settled in my postdoc before I make any big choices.
Fair. One of the things that we provide in our office is called “Designing Your Life” Coaching. This comes out of Stanford University. Bill Burnett and Dave Evans have done some work on this. We talk about this idea of prototyping what our lives might look like moving forward. So, I’m curious, and I’m putting you on the spot here. What are some ways you might want to prototype to see if industry is right for you, or clinical chemistry, or staying in academia?
I feel like I’ve already done some of that prototyping. Just last week, I was in San Francisco for a postdoc conference and I met up with one of my friends who works at AbbVie and he showed me around AbbVie and then also introduced me to some people who work at AbbVie. And so that was me prototyping, asking them about like, what does a day look like? Can I intern? Like, it’s maybe a little too late for me to intern because I’m a postdoc. But if you’re a grad student, that’s definitely something you can totally do. And then I’ve done a little bit of that in like the clinical chemistry labs by just going and visiting them and seeing what they do, talking to like the director of the clinical chemistry labs. I’d be like, what’s your day-to-day? What was your path? So I feel like I’ve done some of that already. But yeah, I do need to really sit down and be like, all right. I need to like map out: what would this career look like? What milestones should I be reaching to get this career, that career? And so I’ve thought about it a little bit.
Nice. Well, good luck with your decision. I think whatever you decide to do, you’re going to be great at it, as what you’ve done so far has proven. So thanks so much for taking some time today. And we look forward to seeing what you do next.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for joining us on another episode of Discovery Dialogues. Stay connected with the Vanderbilt Graduate School as we continue exploring ideas, innovations, and people shaping our academic community. Until next time, keep asking questions, stay curious, and continue discovering what inspires you.
This podcast was recorded in Studio 608 at Vanderbilt University, with the assistance of JT Spangler. This podcast is produced by Anna Thomas, Nick Hyer, and Stacey Satchell in the Graduate School at Vanderbilt University with audio editing by Ben Hill. The perspectives shared in this episode are those of the speakers and do not necessarily represent the views of Vanderbilt University.